Nick

the truth about cain and abel

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Hebrews 11:17-19

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
NIV

Yes, it's interesting that the author of Hebrews stresses the 'faith' element (Abraham reasoning that God could raise the dead) over the 'blind obedience' element (Abraham was willing to commit infanticide for God) that is the focus of so many readings.

We might also remember that God actually spoke to Abraham - He was in the presence of almighty God who had already given him a promise, which he believed. One of the reasons we need to stay very close to Scripture in our reasonings is to know what God's promises are. Most have conditions which we must respond to.

On one occasion I took an NIV Bible on vacation and read through it, marking everything I could find about what God has done for us and what He expects from us. It was a blessing to me and I gave it to my daughter in law who was struggling with the issue of eternal security.

That was several years ago and my son told me recently that she shared in their Bible study group that she is 100% sure of her salvation because of reading through the New Testament in the Bible "Mike's Mom marked for me."

Praise the Lord! There is nothing better than encouraging our children to read and know the Bible for themselves. God's Word will speak to hearts far better than all of our cleverly devised arguments.

..she shared in their Bible study group that she is 100% sure of her salvation because of reading through the New Testament in the Bible "Mike's Mom marked for me."

Re marking promises/expectations: I may just follow your example on that.

First I want to say, you need to change the contrast of the font to the screen. I really had to strain my eyes to read the post.

Actually I think Rene Girard in his book “Things Hidden Since The Foundation Of The World”, puts way to much human reasoning, anthropological philosophy and sociological slant on much of the scriptures and is so intent on “hidden” meanings he misses the obvious. “Strain on a knat and swallow a camel”.

First it is important to understand that Cain and Abel were twins. (Genesis 4:1), “conceived and bare Cain” (Genesis 4:2), “and she again bare his brother Abel”. Conceived once….bare twice. They were raised under the same tutelage of Adam. God is the one who brought the “sacrificial system” to man. After Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17/ 3:6) and their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness (Genesis 3:10), God made covered them with the skins of animals..(Genesis 3:21) Unto Adam also and to his wife Eve did the LORD God make coats of skins and clothed them.” Those animal had to be sacrificed for the skins for those coats. God covered them with the blood. This was the first substitutionary sacrifice. God had already told them the consequences of their disobedience, (Genesis 2:17) “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”. In a spiritual since they did die, in that they were now separated from God by sin. And that “fallen nature” would now pass through Adams seed to the entire race. But they would have died “that day” physically too, except that God substituted the blood of the innocent to cover the sins of the guilty. “The life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.” (Leviticus 17:11). Three important truths point forward in time to the final sacrifice of the Messiah. One, the sacrifice is Gods, not man’s. Just as it was in the testing of Abraham on Mount Moriah, (Genesis 22:8) “God will supply himself a lamb for the sacrifice”,(John 1:29) “Behold, the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.”. Two, God, not man, ultimately does the sacrifice. Remember, Jesus said of his life in John 10:8, “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself”.

Three, God does the covering, not man. (Romans 4:8) “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.”

Abel and Cain had been raised understanding the importance of this “substitutionary sacrifical system”. “It is the blood that maketh atonement.” No blood….No atonement.

I learned along time ago not to judge the parents by the behavior of the children. Two children raised under the same instruction, the same discipline, the same love, and yet they both decide to go in completely different directions. Abel follows Gods plan. Cain decides he will come to God with offerings from his own hands. He wants to earn his favor with God. But even then “by Grace are ye saved through faith”. God provided a means to enter into a relationship with him not through merit but by faith in his love and mercy…and through faith and adherence to his commandments, even though they did not understand them.

Thanks for that. I'm afraid I don't know how to adjust the font on the 'Jesus is Lord' group without changing it on the others, so I'll have to stop posting to that group until I can figure something out. Thanks for squinting your way through the post!

My main point was for a bible story to be completely historically accurate, it doesn't need to be seen as straight reportage. A bible story can be a powerful and true 'capsule' account of a real historical development, and sometimes such readings yield big insights, insights that the critics of the bible overlook. Girard's reading as per 'Violence and the Sacred' certainly doesn't preclude the idea that it is God who instituted sacrifice. I haven't read 'Things Hidden...', so I can't comment on whether or not he misses the point. It's on my list...

That's an interesting take on the nature of sacrifice. What worries me is that, unlike Girards's view (God reluctantly institutes sacrifice to prevent violence from consuming the human race like a plague), the idea that the blood of innocent animals has some kind of redemptive power because God made clothes from animal skins seems metaphysically weird. Why should being bloodied by animal pelts necessitate a sacrificial system - unless the sacrificial system is designed to provide further clothing? Does the blood have ex opere operato, magical power? Or is it just symbolic of the original 'covering'? Someone who criticises the bible as being born from an age of cruel and bloody superstition will not be satisfied when we tell them, 'God says innocent blood covers the transgressions of sinners, so you just have to accept it.' Girard's reading in V&TS, even if you don't agree with it (I'm not sure about it myself - for the same reasons as you, I think), is an example of how we can respond to the critics of Judeo-Christianity on their own terms.

Actually the message of the Old Testament (Tench) but especially Genesis (the Book of Beginings), paints picture of God plan of the redemption of man. Spurgen wrote, the Old Testament points forward in history...the New Testament backward and they meet on Golgotha's Hill. Every doctrine of Christianity has its basis in Genesis. That is one of the incredible things about the scriptures that written over a 2,500 year period by kings, shepherds, tax collectors, fisherman, slaves, rulers, who had not most likely even read each others writing...and yet there is a continuity of symbology, direction, and purpose from Genesis to Revelations. The principles of substitutionary sacrifice set the stage that would find their completion with the final sacrifce of Gods lamb..a male, without belmish, from among the flock of Israel. When John the Baptist saw Jesus on the side of the Jordon and said, "Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", He had already shown that the sacrifice was enough to cover the sins of an individual (Abel), a family (Noah), a house (the Passover), a Nation (Yom Kipper...the day of atonement)..and the world. I am about to leave work...but tonight I will send you a article I had written on "Patterns in the Bible". I think you will enjoy it. Have a Great Day. God Bless.

Thanks, Journeyman. I definitely agree with you (and Spurgeon!) there - and I very much look forward to the article. You have a great day too, and God bless.

Nick.

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